Mark II

discussion of design changes / improvements / suggestions

Mark II

Postby SnapFracturePop » Wed May 22, 2013 4:33 pm

WillAdams posted his thoughts on the potential design for a Shapeoko Mark II in another thread and in the Wiki (http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Mark_II). It got me thinking about what my wish list would include. This isn't necessarily saying that these are practical designs, but still on my Christmas list:

Dual Y or driveshaft standard - For me, the single Y setup was pretty lousy for accuracy. Maybe it would have been better if I knew what I was doing, but as my first hobby CNC router, it defeated me.

Better wire management - that terminal block was a pain, and my stepper wires weren't quite long enough to use it as pictured in the instructions.

"Erector set" mentality - simplify pieces to make better use of the aluminum extrusion's versatility & allow for other robot designs from the same parts.

Offer kit without Makerslide or in different sizes - the standard 8x8x3" cutting area is fairly limiting considering how cheap it is to buy longer Makerslide.

Quick tool change - fast switching between Dremel, laser, extruder, etc. In particular, not needing to reset settings for tool heights would be good.


What else is on the wish list?
Shapeoko #384: dual-Y, outside-belt, ACME-Z,1000mm Y, drag chain cable management, insert-nut style base board, 800mw IR laser cutter, & 3d-printing with Qu-Bd & Printrboard.
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Re: Mark II

Postby WillAdams » Wed May 22, 2013 4:54 pm

I think _everything_ should be on the table for discussion, and of course, if it spurs some actual implementations they can then be documented on the wiki and anyone who wishes can do them.

- absolutely agree w/ dual Y --- it's a real Achilles' heel, and I believe the weakest point / biggest flaw in the base design. A driveshaft addresses it for a minimal expense (which isn't lost if one chooses to go dual motor, save for the aluminum rod (which can be useful for belt anchoring, and the bearing (which I think can still be useful if one isn't putting belts on the outside)) since a lot of the parts are in common w/ the latter upgrade).

- wire management --- I've been looking for nicer connectors, but haven't found anything really affordable --- the terminal blocks win on price. XT-60 connectors look promising ( http://www.amazon.com/XT60-Connector-Pa ... 007MXXGNQ/ ) but I haven't been able to bring myself to buy any, and I believe they require soldering. ISTR some sort of clamp on bit on Thingiverse which would afford cable management and a nicer connection, but not finding it.

- sizes --- while it's cheap to buy longer Makerslide, it's not cheap to ship it (w/ other bulky / heavy items) --- the original lengths were chosen to fit in a flat rate box (I had the same question and that was Edward's answer) --- it also makes kitting more difficult, but the MakerSlide-less option would afford a lot of flexibility.

- quick tool change --- I'd love to see the machined spindle mounts be made in such a way that one could do a quick attach-detach for tool changes. I suspect that simply adding a threaded hole or two (shouldn't add much to the cost) would facilitate that --- or, one simply adds a second set of brackets for each tool, then screws the second set of brackets to the spindle mounts.... will have to see what I can mock up for that.
Shapeoko #364 (rebuilt) w/ NEMA17 motors, ¼″ drive shaft, aluminum spacers, double MakerSlide (375mm) X-Axis, Acme Screw Z-axis, 1M Y upgrades, Makita RT0701c ¼″ Trim Router spindle.
Shapeoko 2 #3005, stock
AtomCNC/Arduino-gShield/X5 Smoothieboard
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Re: Mark II

Postby northbear » Wed May 22, 2013 5:16 pm

SnapFracturePop wrote:Quick tool change - fast switching between Dremel, laser, extruder, etc. In particular, not needing to reset settings for tool heights would be good.


My plan for quick change was to have a separate piece of z axis makerslide for each type of "spindle" and then remove the two bolts attaching the z axis motor to the z axis makerslide to change between spindles. (see pix below bolts circled in red).

Steps to do this would be
1) remove bolts
2) un-thread z axis threaded rod from z axis nut
3) remove old spindle from machine (mounted on makerslide)
4) drop in new spindle into machine (mounted on makerslide)
5) thread z axis into z axis nut
6) reattach attach bolts to new spindle

This shouldn't take more then a few minutes and shouldn't need to do anything but re-home the machine. My thought is once I get my router (or other "spindle") mounted square and plumb to the makerlslide I don't want to have to remove it to mount something else!

Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (68.9 KiB) Viewed 1969 times
My buildlog is here
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Re: Mark II

Postby danimal » Thu May 23, 2013 2:47 am

northbear wrote:
SnapFracturePop wrote:Quick tool change - fast switching between Dremel, laser, extruder, etc. In particular, not needing to reset settings for tool heights would be good.


My plan for quick change was to have a separate piece of z axis makerslide for each type of "spindle" and then remove the two bolts attaching the z axis motor to the z axis makerslide to change between spindles. (see pix below bolts circled in red).

Steps to do this would be
1) remove bolts
2) un-thread z axis threaded rod from z axis nut
3) remove old spindle from machine (mounted on makerslide)
4) drop in new spindle into machine (mounted on makerslide)
5) thread z axis into z axis nut
6) reattach attach bolts to new spindle

This shouldn't take more then a few minutes and shouldn't need to do anything but re-home the machine. My thought is once I get my router (or other "spindle") mounted square and plumb to the makerlslide I don't want to have to remove it to mount something else!

Capture.PNG


I was thinking about the same thing and the conclusion that I came to is that it is going to be more difficult to do it that way than if there were a quick detach mount plate that was keyed to align in only one position with repeatable accuracy. I will have to draw something up so that you can see what I mean, but the basic idea would be a solid mount plate that is fastened to the maker slide, then a piece that mates with that piece that is held on with a quick detach mechanism similar to a bike axle quick disconnect. I am pondering a whole re-imagining of my machine right now, but I just don't have time to finish it due to work taking all my time. Stupid job taking away quality Shapeoko time...
Shapeoko # 1458

RT0701C Spindle || dual y motor || x axis nema23 with custom carriage 1000mm length || z axis nema23 linear rail upgrade with 1/2-10 ACME
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Re: Mark II

Postby danimal » Thu May 23, 2013 2:59 am

SnapFracturePop wrote:Dual Y or driveshaft standard - For me, the single Y setup was pretty lousy for accuracy. Maybe it would have been better if I knew what I was doing, but as my first hobby CNC router, it defeated me.

"Erector set" mentality - simplify pieces to make better use of the aluminum extrusion's versatility & allow for other robot designs from the same parts.

Offer kit without Makerslide or in different sizes - the standard 8x8x3" cutting area is fairly limiting considering how cheap it is to buy longer Makerslide.

Quick tool change - fast switching between Dremel, laser, extruder, etc. In particular, not needing to reset settings for tool heights would be good.


What else is on the wish list?


These upgrades seem perfect. I wish that I could have bough a complete kit then chose my length of makerslide. That would have been perfect for me. The beauty of shapeoko is the ease of scaling it to suit your needs for cheap. This is the shining characteristic that sets it apart from most other CNC machines. I think incorporating this into the initial sale of the item would make it that much more appealing.

Also I would like to be able to buy just the motor mount plates so that I could build another one with other components, be it NEMA 23s or whatever I could find that suited my specific application. Having each of the plates available for individual purchase to include the open mounting plates would be great not just for building shapeokos but also building anything else that I can come up with.

The last thing I can think of would be hard anodized makers slide. I am going to anodize my own for now and see how it turns out, but having a professionally done version to choose from would be great.
Shapeoko # 1458

RT0701C Spindle || dual y motor || x axis nema23 with custom carriage 1000mm length || z axis nema23 linear rail upgrade with 1/2-10 ACME
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Re: Mark II

Postby northbear » Thu May 23, 2013 3:10 am

danimal wrote:I was thinking about the same thing and the conclusion that I came to is that it is going to be more difficult to do it that way than if there were a quick detach mount plate that was keyed to align in only one position with repeatable accuracy. I will have to draw something up so that you can see what I mean, but the basic idea would be a solid mount plate that is fastened to the maker slide, then a piece that mates with that piece that is held on with a quick detach mechanism similar to a bike axle quick disconnect. I am pondering a whole re-imagining of my machine right now, but I just don't have time to finish it due to work taking all my time. Stupid job taking away quality Shapeoko time...


Sounds like you have a good idea in mind, I like it! A disadvantage I can see with that kind of setup is adding plates will add more weight and also push the spindle farther away from the support of the v-wheels. Not sure how much this would matter. For me I think I will just start with the multiple z axis makerslide. At this point I don't see myself changing spindles all that often and so I am not concerned with it being a bit more difficult / time consuming. I will be interested to see your design when you get a chance to draw it up!
My buildlog is here
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Re: Mark II

Postby no_hazmats » Tue May 28, 2013 12:38 am

First, after reading year-old posts about new end plates, I wish they were a part of the standard kit. If they were available, then the width of the working area (X-Axis) would be selected by length of Maker Rail.

I agree on the sizes. Ideally, it wouldn't kill Inventibles to keep various lengths of Maker Rail & Maker Slide on hand. I'd love to see a range of options in the kit: Y- and X- Axes; Plastic vs metal spacers, double X-Axis, Double Y-Motors. That way the base price would still be at/near the goal set by Edward, and those that want can purchase the upgrades with their original kit. Most web stores have a way to select / price options these days.

I wanted mine to be 1,000 x 500 mm. And I've already done the double Y-Motor; Double X-Axis; Metal Spacers; Steel wheels; in addition to buying extra rail for the expanded size. It would have been convenient to get all those in the kit.

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ShapeOko S/N SHEP00001
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Re: Mark II

Postby no_hazmats » Tue May 28, 2013 1:19 am

northbear wrote:Sounds like you have a good idea in mind, I like it! A disadvantage I can see with that kind of setup is adding plates will add more weight and also push the spindle farther away from the support of the v-wheels. Not sure how much this would matter. For me I think I will just start with the multiple z axis makerslide. At this point I don't see myself changing spindles all that often and so I am not concerned with it being a bit more difficult / time consuming. I will be interested to see your design when you get a chance to draw it up!



I've also been thinking along these lines. I definitely will be wanting to be able to mount / unmount the spindle; 3-D Print Head; and (maybe someday) Laser optics. So how about this idea:

What if the current standard (and modified) spindle mounts were changed to bolt to the sides of the Z-Axis rail instead of to the front of it? So, in the picture below, mount the spindle mount using the rails shown by the green arrows instead of the red arrows:

Side Mount.JPG
Side Mount.JPG (22.77 KiB) Viewed 1821 times


Connected to the rail it would look something like this: (Pardon the poor drawing, not to scale....)

That way the mount would not be farther away from the X-Axis, and it could be changed without messing with the Z-Axis at all.
Attachments
New Spindle Mount on Rail.JPG
New Spindle Mount on Rail.JPG (47.73 KiB) Viewed 1821 times
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Re: Mark II

Postby no_hazmats » Tue May 28, 2013 1:28 am

Another thought - Drill a hole in the spindle or accessory mount and a matching hole in the middle of the Z-Rail. Thread the hole on the mount and put a screw through it. This will allow the mount to be returned to the same position after it's removed.

Like this:
Attachments
New Spindle Mount on Rail With Index.JPG
New Spindle Mount on Rail With Index.JPG (53.7 KiB) Viewed 1818 times
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Re: Mark II

Postby northbear » Tue May 28, 2013 2:36 am

no_hazmats wrote:So how about this idea:
What if the current standard (and modified) spindle mounts were changed to bolt to the sides of the Z-Axis rail instead of to the front of it? So, in the picture below, mount the spindle mount using the rails shown by the green arrows instead of the red arrows:


I like this idea! Unfortunately, whenever I drew something up that attached to the side of the makerslide it would always run into the bolt heads for the z axis v-wheel. There may be a way around this, but I never came up with a way that worked for what I was trying to do.
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